7/24/11 SundayOnce again church was interesting, but more so than usual. They had a speaker who is from Uganda, and at the end a prayer thing where people “fall out” in the spirit kind of deal. I’m still not sure what to think of that. But the interesting part came at end of the Sunday evening bible study. It was the typical format where individuals are asked to read portions of scripture and then comes the standard question “What do you think about that” where everyone gets to expound on what the scripture means to them. It’s a format that allows the teacher, this time the pastor, to not have to do much research or work in order to teach.
As I got up to leave after class was over Jannie asked me to stay a while, “I need to talk to you” she said. Ok, I stayed put, and waited as folks wrapped things up and headed out, but they weren’t all heading out. Soon there were five or six people that had surrounded me. I already knew what was up, God told me long ago this would happen. It’s sad but expected.
“For almost two years now, you haven’t been happy in this church. We, the board and all of us, have met and decided you should find someplace where you can be happy” Jannie said. “How would you know I’m not happy? Not one of you has talked to me to any great length” I replied. “We’re not going to argue with you. See, that’s what you always do, start a debate” was her response. “How can I start a debate if no one talks to me?” I asked, but got only more of the “be quiet, we’re not going to listen to you” type of answers. Jannie said I have been nit picking everyone ever since I’d been there (She said two years but it’s only been since June of last year) Then they dared throw up Mathew 18 by kind of paraphrasing “If your brother sins go to him and if he keeps it up bring it to the whole church”.
Actually what is says is Mathew 18:15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private ; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church ; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
By this time I had been escorted out the door. Jannie had said “We’re not asking you, we’re telling you, you are not welcome here” and that’s when things got more aggressive. As I protested that I hadn’t said anything bad against anyone and made the point “How can I say something bad when no one talks to me?”. Clarence angrily told me that I had been bad mouthing him to others. “What did I say, Clarence?” I asked, for to my knowledge I have said nothing bad about him or anyone else. What I already know, and have documentation for, is that there has been a lot of gossip going around about me. When I started to read the letter Jannie had written me, that revealed not only the gossip but some of what was being said, she cut me off, not wanting this truth to be revealed. I’ll reveal it here. I believe in the truth and Jesus said “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. But there is nothing covered up that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known. 3 Accordingly, whatever you have said in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in the inner rooms will be proclaimed upon the housetops.” (Luke 12)
In the process of me being walked out the door someone put their hands on my neck and started pushing me toward the door. “You’d better get your hands off of me” I warned him and he wisely complied. As I stood outside the church, at the door with several of the “board members” there, I turned and preached. “Do you really think this is what Jesus wants?” I asked, but got no response other than people looking away from me. Clarence was just plain angry and not willing to be man enough to talk. The fact is Jesus, and our faith, is about forgiveness.
Mathew 18:21 Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times ?" 22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
And Love
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge ; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous ; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly ; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth ; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails ; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away ; if there are tongues, they will cease ; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part ; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child ; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face ; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three ; but the greatest of these is love. (1 Corinthians 13)
"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. (Jesus, John 15:12)
And then Unity
Ephesians 4:1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Was any of this evident when it came to me? Not that I could tell. For over a year I simply asked pastor Jannie to sit down and talk with me, just once. She seems to have interpreted that as my demanding a relationship with her. It is clear to me that there is a spirit in the midst of this, and it isn’t the spirit of the most holy God.
There have been several men that God sent to Hosanna church, in answer to Jannie’s and others prayers for help, and they have all been run out, with Jannie making fun of them from the pulpit. Then God sent us, we didn’t want to go there, but it was made pretty clear to my stubborn resistive self that it was His desire. What I knew in my spirit was that there was great need there. Now I understand that God has been trying to get Jannie to listen, but she keeps resisting. I fear now that His hand of judgment will come down, and Jannie will lose her voice. That was given to me a month ago. If it is God it will happen, if it’s my imagination, nothing will happen. We will wait and see.
So it is time to reveal the truth. I have refrained from saying anything specific but now I am free to be honest. I’ll start with the letter Jannie sent me, in response to the 20 plus page letter I finally wrote her after asking to meet for a year. It will be interspersed with my comments to help you understand things. (I’ll include the misspellings typos. It’s just the way we got it)If you want to skip all the emails the big letter I wrote is halfway down this post.
Bob
If you remember when you and Cherri came to Hosanna, I sat down in the chairs in front of you and visited with you. If you had just went from there and let the relationship build normally from that, no telling where we would be by now. The relationship I have with all the other members has been built, simply through time. But instead you started trying to make me do what you thought I should do, I do not accept forcing. You have tried to program, manipulate and use scripture to force me to do what you wanted me to do, you have mentioned something in every bible study, trying to force a relationship. I know that is not the Holy Spirit, because that is not how He operates. He does not Force, Program or manipulate. That has just driven a wedge between us. I read a couple of pages of this and knew it was a book of the same stuff you did in the emails (bob note; I will post all the emails, you tell me what you think)
A book of using scripture to try and manipulate me unto your will, or doing it like you think is the right way. Scripture is always good, unless it is used the wrong way. This is nothing new. It started in the Garden of Eden.
I helped you with your bath room and later you said I had thrown money at you instead of fellowship. (bob note; I never said that, or even thought it. Where that came from I don’t know but gossip has been rife in this group and suspect that is the source) I thought that me coming out and bringing a crew to see what we could do to help, was a fellowship thing. I thought giving money to buy the things you needed was a form of showing we cared. I sure had no responsibility to do that
(bob note; Let me fill you in on the bathroom debacle. Linda, a person we had befriended and done a lot for, in her desire to pay us back, lied to the church, telling them we only had a garden hose for water in the bathroom, so they decided to “Fix” our bathroom. We later discovered that Linda, was a habitual liar, was fired from her job for constantly telling stories so bad it jeopardized their company, and has a poison tongue with no bounds. One of the people from the church came out and helped me tear down a wall and haul the bathtub and sink out. He is a great guy and good brother. No one else, who had said they would help, came out so we were stuck for six months with only a toilet and no wall. We bathed in the kitchen sink. But in Jannie’s mind she, or the church, had no responsibility in that. They gave us $500 for what would cost us $2800, given by our friends at First Baptist in Midland, to repair. Now back to Jannie’s letter)
I pat all people or shake their hand and once I tried to pat you on your shoulder and you shrieked (bob note; her spelling, sure she meant “shrinked”) out from under my hand as though you thought,, Well I don’t know what you were thinking, but it sure wasn’t what I was thinking. (bob note; Here you get a glimpse of how Jannie interprets and reads into everything)
There has been several that says you have a problem with women. I don’t know, all I can say, is, if you have to write me a 15 or 20 page book to tell me all my faults, I can’t imagine why you stay and sit under my leadership. (bob note; the first clear revelation of gossip, and her participation in it. As far as why I stayed, because God told me to despite my wanting to get out of dodge)
I didn’t read the book because I don’t want to fill my spirit with all the negative stuff. Back when you were writing me the same stuff on emails, I quit reading them too. I do not have time, nor the responsibility to try and explain all my actions to you or anyone else I am amazed that I took the time to write this. (bob note; So am I, but grateful for it because it revealed much. When you are wrong the truth is a negative, but running and hiding from the truth is never good)
I’m sure you have been called, all of us have been called, I’m sure God has plans for you. He has equipped you. You have a good knowledge of the word. Because of that you talk down to people as though you are the only authority and they don’t like that. (bob note; more evidence of the gossip going around) I’m just telling you this, so it might help you in the future. I know you have gone through trauma, rejection and other things causing some personalities. (bob note; “Personalities”??? Beats me folks. As far as trauma and rejection, oh yes, it has formed me and given the ability to minister to many who have been through it. Of course her final response of escorting me out of the church really showed her concern for my well being {sarcasm intended})
I pray for you often and that you can be helped in Hosanna or if we can’t help you, that God will get you in a place to be helped. (bob note; How can you help someone when you refuse to talk with them? Here we see a definition of “Hypocrite”) The other members of Hosanna have done all they can to under gird and help me as pastor, they sure do now that I have to be out with Debbie. But all this time you have only thought of yourself. I will not fight with you so this is the end of this. If you want to keep digging at me, Then, I’ll just let God handle it.
(bob note; This is the end of the letter. She has no idea of how I have interceded with God for her, of how I have prayed and fasted, and worked hard to submit to her leadership in every way. “Just letting God handle it” is the part Jannie doesn’t really want, for His judgment is just and sure. I am the Lords servant, doing His will to the best of my limited ability. God have mercy on her.)
Here is our very first set of emails. She says I was manipulating? You be the judge. Because I am copying the emails straight off the email sight they are in reverse order, with the initial email at the bottom and the last the first one you see.
Subject: Re: Scott Chiropractic and Wellness center
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 07:10:17
I don't have blind belief in doctors either. In fact very careful. I have and do' do a lot of reading and many call me a health nut. I don't take any kind of drugs.
As for you and your wife, Leroy and I never kept secrets either. Good policy.
Yes gossip is bad. We had a man that went to our church and he got upset over his misconception and left. Everyone knows him and that he is a gossip and trouble maker, yet they believed him when it came to Hosanna. I don't know what your situation or belief is and we may not agree on everything but I will tell you this' I will decide for myself and we don't have to break relationship if we don't agree on everything.
We are back in Tulsa, i don't always have access to a Computer.
God Bless !
--- On Mon, 6/28/10, bob westbrook
Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 11:07 AM
I don't have blind belief in doctors either. In fact very careful. I have and do' do a lot of reading and many call me a health nut. I don't take any kind of drugs.
As for you and your wife, Leroy and I never kept secrets either. Good policy.
Yes gossip is bad. We had a man that went to our church and he got upset over his misconception and left. Everyone knows him and that he is a gossip and trouble maker, yet they believed him when it came to Hosanna. I don't know what your situation or belief is and we may not agree on everything but I will tell you this' I will decide for myself and we don't have to break relationship if we don't agree on everything.
We are back in Tulsa, i don't always have access to a Computer.
God Bless !
--- On Mon, 6/28/10, bob westbrook
Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 11:07 AM
There's nothing wrong with believing in doctors, I just don't have "blind" belief. A good friend, Dr Ron Charles, is an archeologist and missionary. As an archeologist he can get into middle east countries that missionaries are not allowed to enter so he ministers to the persecuted muslim's who converted to Christianity at great risk and almost certain death. They have recieved medical care in Germany and told us how different it is from what's found in America. Our doctors have a narrow view influenced by the drug companies, who's products are "sold" by the doctors, and the educational system reflects that.
Regarding the "This is between you and me" I share with my wife who has free and open access to all my email. I'll presume you trust her as you have trusted me in this instance. I won't talk about our conversations and avoided mentioning Hossana in my blog, saying only that we attended a "small local church". We have suffered great harm from some locals who make it important to talk about us and read my blog to keep up with what we do. Wouldn't surprise me if someone approaches you to "warn" about us. Gossip is one of the most powerful tools the devil has and it's an infection that spreads like crazy in a small town like Stanton.
--- On Sun, 6/27/10, LEROY LINNEY
Date: Sunday, June 27, 2010, 5:32 PM
I will check with him. I didn't tell you that my daughter is a LVN nurse and she thinks in that line plus she does have a close relationship with the Lord. I think her training weighs heavy though. The Health food store gave me 4 DVD's on the effect of Chemo and how to eat, I gave them to her, ???? The radiation got rid of the lump on the side of her neck, so that makes her believe more in doctors. This is between you and me. Thanks !!!
--- On Sun, 6/27/10, bob westbrook
Hi Jannie, here is a link to Scott Chiropractic's website. Charles Scott is well educated and travels to Germany and other countries in his studies of non traditional medical methodology. He is a regular guest on GLC's Christian television and often works with those who have regular medical doctor's licenses. He has published a book on natural remedies that we have. When it comes to your daughter and combating the damages caused by radiation and chemotherapy I think you can find the most up to date and reliable information here. It will be well worth the time and possible expense to meet with him and get his advice. He can recommend a vitamen and diet regimen that will maximize your daughters ability to heal and recover.
http://www.scottchiropracticwellness.com/
You can read about us on my blog at http://walkedwithangels.blogspot.com/
There are no accidents in the Kingdom of God and nothing happens in our lives that doesn't have a purpose. Look forward to whatever God has in store.
============================================================
Ok, so far everything seems pretty kosher. Next email
Subject: Re: To Touch Base
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:17:20
Neat ! I have a heart for farming. Raised on a farm and married a farmer. I worked in the fields all my life. I only worked in the fall with my husband. I ran the ricker[before the module] and then the module machine when we gathered the cotton.
The dedication to two pastors is when a family splits their time between two churches. and I am not talking about you. I understand what you are doing. I have had people who did that as a life style. Went to two churches for years and years. I could never depend on them for anything. So I finally just quit trying. They just came and went as they pleased. I kind of think the other pastor did the same. They even got to where they didn't go anywhere much.
Haven't had time to look at your web site, but will.
Date: Monday, July 12, 2010, 8:01 PM
Geneva's last name is Mills.
I don't quite get the "dedicated to two pastors" sentence so perhaps you can simplify it for me. It's always good to make sure you understand what someone says. I've heard things that weren't at all what the teller was trying to say and it can be embarassing. I currently am involved in the Kairos prison ministry, which goes to the state prison in Fort Stockton. Other than that I just help where I can though I sometimes teach at Stepping Stone halfway house in Midland. We're not terribly active. I spend most of my time trying to build a farm, with little in the way of resources or knowlege. I'm pretty much a city boy. Work until I hurt too much and rest till the pain goes away.
Date: Monday, July 12, 2010, 8:37 PM
No, I didn't think you were trying to get into leadership. I just don't know what I need someone to do, till it comes up and then is when I ask whoever is there to do it. That's all I meant. Until a person has been a pastor for quiet a while, they can't imagine all that goes on. I understand about moving slow. If you remember I told you to pray about it and that I want you where God wants you.
We know there are going to be many ministries working out of Hosanna, but they won't try to be dedicated to two pastors. I understand that is not your intentions, but I didn't know that till I talked to you. I have had that happen though, and I could not depend on those people. I guess that's why I brought it up to you that Sunday.
I am thankful for a servants heart. We have some of them but you can never have too many. In fact that is the heart of Christ. I need to know what all you and your wife do. I believe we are on the verge of some big things and I need to know about all the people.
I will keep my ears open for sitting opportunities. What is Geneva's last name?
Love in Christ !!!
bob wrote
Date: Monday, July 12, 2010, 1:03 PM
You didn't run us off. We explained that there are commitments at the Midland church and would move slowley. There we found friends and family and it's hard to just up and leave, despite doctrinal differences. Hossanna is more like what we are used to. When I asked how I can help it appeared you had the impression I was wanting a position of leadership.
I'd be the first to say that putting a stranger in leadership before you knew who and what they are
is extremely irresponsible and in fact would question such a thing. We feel that God is leading us to Hossana but have learned to be careful about such things. I help others with menial tasks (not sure menial is the right word) when I can, like mowing a widow's lawn in Midland. A servants heart is something I work to have. Simple things like taking out garbage have great rewards. What God has in store I don't know but look forward to finding out.
Thanks for telling us about the baptisms and going ons. We plan on being there next Sunday. Would have gone this Sunday but needed to meet with the family life pastor at First Baptist to present a widow's need. This you might be able to help with. She is 76 and the school district is ending the "Grandmother" program where they help with young children at the school. She only made $2.50 an hour but it helped. Now she is working to start a business where she will help caretakers of elderly family members get a break by sitting with the elderly person. She was inspired to do this, and did it before, through the years she cared for her mother and wasn't able to "escape" and do something like enjoy a dinner with friends because the mother couldn't be left alone. So if you know of families that could use such a service please let me know. She is getting bonded and will also provide employment for others who also were in the grandmother program. I have literature we designed for Geneva (the widow's name) that we can send or drop off.
Jannie, I can't remember if I gave you my website's address before. We would like you, and everyone else at Hossana, to get to know who we are. I keep an online journal at walkedwithangels.blogspot.com
Being dependable can be a rather relative concept. I have obligations and am involved in various ministries so may not always be there, depending on what's going on. I work to insure God can depend on me to do His will, and strive to understand what that may be. As a general rule you can depend on me to do what I say. As we transition from the Midland church to Hossana you will see us more often, but we are careful to not offend or upset those whom have shown us so much love, and whom we also care deeply about. It almost feels like we are betraying them but have talked to a few and explained what is going on. In the end we will write a letter to them all and explain we are following God's direction. I don't burn bridges, unless they link to a past I've left behind. I've left a lot of sinful history behind me, old things are passing away and new things are coming.
Write often, don't be afraid to bring up any subject, care, or concern. I hide nothing and believe on living a life that I am proud of and have no shame in. There are troubled times ahead of this country and the world. As these events unfold it will be important to have fellowship and support of fellow believers.
In Christ, bob
--- On Mon, 7/12/10, LEROY LINNEY
Date: Monday, July 12, 2010, 12:46 PM
Just to touch base
I pray I didn't run you off. When you ask what you could to help, I took that to mean you wanted to become a part of Hosanna. I mainly wanted to encourage you to be dependable, and as things came up that we needed help with, you could be found.
I believe that's what any pastor would like to say. I may be one of the few that would just come out and say it.
We had two Baptisms last night and a really good fellowship afterward. It wasn't planed, but one lady cooked for some people that didn't need it and the food wound up at church. So we had a party. God is good !!!
We Love you and Hope to see you Soon !!!
Jannie
===========================================================
Here we find the seed of distrust that will grow over the months to come. There are a series of emails that involve various “forwards” of a variety of those mass circulated emails involving various issues and events. Things are still friendly.
Subject: Re: FW: TEXAS---Good News
From: LEROY LINNEY (llinney@prodigy.net)
To: bobcarver1@yahoo.com;
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 16:47:44
We gained about 15 people Sunday night. Looking good !!!!
--- On Mon, 8/23/10, bob westbrook
From: bob westbrook
Subject: Re: FW: TEXAS---Good News
To: "LEROY LINNEY"
Date: Monday, August 23, 2010, 12:08 PM
Thanks Jannie. This is the kind of thing I like to keep up on. There's a war coming and it's already here spiritually. The demons of deceit and apathy are doing their best to lead as many astray as possible. It's gonna get bad but with the bad will come great good. This is when God will move, purge the dross out of the church and bring many lost in. Like I said before "How many chairs do you have?". We will need them.
You're welcome. We've got bell peppers and jalepeno's as well. I'm planting lots of peas and stuff for fall and there is okra growing that should make soon. Part of the sharing has to do with our giving the first fruits of the land to the Lord. I'm thinking that means to God's people and any in need we find. There's tons of blackeyed peas in the farmer's field next door if you know of any who are poor or in need. They can pick all they want.
--- On Fri, 9/3/10, LEROY LINNEY
Date: Friday, September 3, 2010, 11:50 AM
Thanks for sharing your garden with the people at the Church. I love veg's .Tomatoes are not my favorite as I told you and neither is Black eyed peas. That's one reason I don't come and Pick some. another reason is I am consumed with many things. I usually have a tiny garden in my back yard, but not this year because of almost living in Tulsa. Maybe next year ??? Thanks again !!! Have a blessed day !!!!!
================================================================
Things are still looking good. Wonder where I start manipulating. Now we are to December.
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 16:20:05
The 700 e-mails are after the trash has been deleted. These are the ones I would really like to read. That's why I still have them. I have a lot of close people and wouldn't know who to put in the special list.
My Impression is built on what I see and discern. The Bible says the first one seems right till you hear the second. I thank you for the prayers. I need much prayer. You are right about the enemy trying to stir trouble. He has heard all the prophecies about the church and he is mad. What we need to do is just be sure we are not one he can use us in the process. We can't change others but we can change our responce to what others do.
In the past we have had people go to Hosanna and for whatever reason, they get hurt or don't agree with someone[sometimes not even related to the church] and go out over town spewing out venom over town, then all the people in town think all of Hosanna is that vindictive. We have had just about every thing go through Hosanna. No one knows the reality of being a pastor till they are one. Many think they could do a better job.
I don't worry about it, I'm not in compitition with anyone and I know I've been set where I am by God, so I just do the best I can. He knew who and what I was before He called me.
--- On Fri, 12/17/10, bob westbrook
Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 8:51 AM
Thank you very much. We will have to see how it goes for history shows that it all depends on who is in the mail room at the time something arrives, and what kind of mood they are in. But God will get it through, I'm confident.
I hesitate to send you emails because you told me you had something like 700 emails come in so I have to wonder if you would even see it. This is a shame because I often communicate better in writing, and once something is written it is always there, verifiable, and less likely to be misconstrued, as talk often is. Perhaps you could set up another email address that is only given out to a select few so their communication doesn't get lost in a crowd, and you don't have to wade through as much stuff to get to it.
We would like you to know that Cherie and I are holding you up in prayer. I have a concern that your impression of us is based on input from others as we really have never sat down and gotten to know each other. Our enemy knows God has plans for this church and will work to create discord where he can, and this is best fought through prayer and open communication, shining the light of truth on everything.
In Christ, Bob Westbrook
--- On Fri, 12/17/10, LEROY LINNEY
Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 8:15 AM
Book went out Wednesday. Let me know if it all goes well.
===============================================================
This is the first time I ask to talk with my pastor. Perhaps this is the manipulation? I don’t know but there is a little evidence of the paranoia that will later consume more of her thoughts. But this next email is where it really starts.
Subject: Re: I probably worry too much
From: Jannie Linney (llinney@prodigy.net)
To: bobcarver1@yahoo.com;
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 08:45:28
Somehow. I knew you would not receive what I said. It was only to help you. I am not threatened by any one. I know who I am and who set me where I am.
I will not carry this any further.
Bobcarver1@yahoo
They say that "perception is reality" and there is a truth in that. A perception recieved from a distance without getting to know the person can sometimes be misleading. Those perceptions, small judgments, once in place color your interpretation of that persons actions from then on. You twice expressed me "making a big thing" out of what what happens and that I "look for things to get upset about". This reveals your perception of me and tells me these are areas I need to work on. Perhaps it's a misinterpretation of my zeal for the Holiness God desires in us all but regardless it shows that zeal is not expressed correctly, that I am not speaking the truth with enough love. Four times you have said, (once in an email to me and three times publicly) that unless someone has been a pastor they can't understand what it takes to be one, and coupled with that was something regarding others desire to be the pastor. When we first came to Hossanna I asked how I may serve you, thinking of things like taking out garbage, and you interpreted it as my requesting a position of leadership and explained the parade of those who came intent on taking over the church. So I understand you are gunshy and wary of others intentions and have tread carefully since so as to not cause that worry. My only desire is to do what God wants. I have been a pastor, by the way, and say that hesitantly for worry you may see me as a threat, not an ally in the cause of Christ. I mentored under Ron Charles as he founded and built a church in Toledo and had taught, ministered, and preached in many places prior to the accident that led to my divorce from Cherie and the subsequent falling away. I don't approach the years of experience and wisdom that comes with it, that you have, but have an idea of what it takes to be in your shoes. My desire is to support, not hamper.
--- On Tue, 1/4/11, LEROY LINNEY
Date: Tuesday, January 4, 2011, 10:25 PM
On Jan 5, 2011, at 11:55 AM, bob westbrook
That was a good scripture and did go with what we were talking about. I have that scripture in the lesson I was going to give when we got of on another subject the night it was you Sheri and Lanell. That lesson was suppose to have been given before Sunday. The Lord told me to give it and I still will, however timing is important too.
I want everyone to have input. At least that scripture was on the subject we were talking about. Many times the teacher wants to take the group to a point and the lesson gets taken off in a whole different direction. It's like sometimes some people are not listing and they are looking in the word for what they want to talk about. I did have several other scriptures that we did not get to. We can never hit all the scriptures on any subject. I guess I was just supprised when I said I didn't get through but we needed to close, and you continued, but that was fine. It worked out. I could stay and talk all night as can you but others have to go to work the next day and get kids to bed for school. Those that want to stay and talk can.
Also, I think you have been hurt or rejected so many times, you watch for things to get upset about. Like you said, the devil can blow things out of proportion, so its better to tell him where to go and not work it and make a big thing out of it. I think the Lord had already showed you that from what you named this e-mail.
From what I have heard you say, you have had quiet a bit of this kind of thing happen to you here in Stanton. It can cause bitterness and unforgivness if it's not let go. That will make you sick.
You are the one that said get it out in the open. I have just been observing you from the time you started coming to church. When you started talking about some of the people in this town,[ and bitterness showed] I have just changed the subject at times because I didn't want a negative atmosphere when we are starting a Bible Study. You haven't done that lately though. So maybe things are better. I would be glad to minister to you sometime about your hurts if you would like. I pray for you and Sherri all the time. But then I pray for every person in Hosanna and believe you all pray for me. I pray you will take this as a constructive e-mail and not work it and make it a big thing. Be Blessed and Know I care about you. Thats the reason I take a chance of telling you the truth.
--- On Tue, 1/4/11, bob westbrook
Date: Tuesday, January 4, 2011, 5:09 PM
Hi Jannie, I listen carefully and ponder on what I hear. I also understand that without communication our imagination can sometimes see things that aren't there and the best way to deal with that is to get it out into the open. I also know that our enemy is eager to take advantage of every fear and concern to create problems by feeding them. Sunday night I asked to tell of another scripture at the end of your lesson, that I thought went well with the lesson. You seemed frustrated by that and told me "I have lots of other scriptures but just didn't have time to get to them". Please understand that I in no way wished to undermine you, my desire was to help and be a positive part of things.
I would like to find some time where we can talk and get to know each other, to clear the air of any misperceptions that may exist, if they exist at all. It is through openess and bringing everything to the light that any works of the enemy are exposed and thus dealt with. Let me know when that would be convenient for you. My number is 488-7346. My desire is to serve the Lord, to build the body of Christ and help arm it for battle, and that requires my submission to authority, and you as my pastor.
I also wanted to ask what you would suggest when it comes to continuing contact with those I minister to at the jail. I won't give them my personal phone number, nor let them know where I live. This is strictly against the rules to do with the prison ministry and I see a wisdom in that, but am desirous to water the seeds planted when these guys get out of jail, to continue feeding them.
In Christ, Bob Westbrook
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In this email I am trying to ease Jannie’s mind. Can’t see any manipulation here. Can you?
Sunday, January 6
Jannie, I meet with Cecil Robinson, Chuck Lane, and others on a regular basis. When I expressed my desire to have someone to submit to for spiritual oversight, knowing that God has called me to ministry, Chuck suggested you. He then contacted you about it and that is how we found our way to Hossana. They asked me last week how that is working out and I really didn’t know what to say. Perhaps that was lost between the time Chuck talked with you and we started going to Hossana. You talked about communication today and we don’t seem to have a lot of that, other than brief “How are you doing”:kind of stuff. Cherie and I look forward to serving you at the church.
Bob
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Here I offer to clean toilets. Pretty bad stuff right? Kind of stuff you should be kicked out of the church for. By the way, the invite to speak at Women’s Aglow was canceled after Jannie later “advised” the leader of it regarding me. She tears down what she built up.
Wednesday, January 19
Jannie, couldn’t help hearing the frustration in Debbie’s voice as she talked about someone who wanted the pulpit but wasn’t willing to clean the toilets. Do you need someone to clean toilets? I’ll be happy to. When we first started coming to Hossana I asked you how we can serve, and then had to explain that doesn’t mean I wanted a position of leadership, just wanted to mow lawns or take out the garbage. You said there was already someone doing that.
I don’t have a key and have no idea where cleaning supplies are so would need you to tell me when to show up and to show me what you need done. Been waiting for you to ask me to do anything, however small.
By the way, thank you for recommending me to Womens Aglow
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This next email shows me trying to break the ice, sharing things of God, and asking why there is such a distance between us.
Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 08:24:13
That doesn't answer my question. Try talking with me so I can understand what this distance between us is about, why there is an uncomfortability here. God is about truth and light, nothing hidden or kept silent. You keep talking about those who want to be "Your buddy" and that you don't have time for that. I understand being a pastor. There were 500 regular attendees at the church I helped pastor with Ron Charles (Who's book you mailed to the prison for me) and it was important to at least spend the time to know what page they were on. I think it's a safe bet that you've had more conversations about me than with me. Mind you, I don't consider asking "How are you doing" and not taking the time to discuss the answer as a conversation. Would you sit down for 30 minutes with us?
--- On Sat, 3/5/11, LEROY LINNEY
Date: Saturday, March 5, 2011, 4:56 PM
Don't make everything so personal.
--- On Fri, 3/4/11, bob westbrook
Date: Friday, March 4, 2011, 7:31 PM
Do you think I'm one of those people?
--- On Fri, 3/4/11, LEROY LINNEY
Date: Friday, March 4, 2011, 5:58 PM
Praise God !!! That's what I preach all time. I have told the people , If someone comes in drunk, we will prop him up by someone on each side of him and go right on with the service. Fay repeated that the other day. It's those that come in that thinks they know more and think they are better than others that is hard to deal with. We have had all kinds over the years. Have a Good Day !!
--- On Wed, 3/2/11, bob westbrook
Date: Wednesday, March 2, 2011, 8:56 PM
Now this is the Living Bible:
His name is Tim. He has wild hair, wears a T-shirt with holes in it,
jeans, and no shoes. This was literally his wardrobe for his entire
four years of college.
He is brilliant. Kind of profound and very, very bright. He became a
Christian while attending college.
Across the street from the campus is a well-dressed, very conservative
church. They want to develop a ministry to the students but are not
sure how to go about it..
One day Tim decides to go there. He walks in with no shoes, jeans, his
T-shirt, and wild hair. The service has already started and so Tim
starts down the aisle looking for a seat.
The church is completely packed and he can't find a seat.
By now, people are really looking a bit uncomfortable,
but no one says anything.
Tim gets closer and closer and closer to the pulpit, and when he
realizes there are no seats, he just squats down right on the carpet.
By now the people are really uptight, and the tension in the air is thick.
About this time, the minister realizes that from way at the back of the
church , a deacon is slowly making his way toward Tim.
Now the deacon is in his eighties, has silver-gray hair, and a
three-piece suit. A godly man, very elegant, very dignified, very
courtly. He walks with a cane and, as he starts walking toward this boy,
everyone is saying to themselves that you can't blame him for what he's going to do.
How can you expect a man of his age and of his background to understand some college kid on the floor?
It takes a long time for the man to reach the boy.
The church is utterly silent except for the clicking of the man's cane.
All eyes are focused on him. You can't even hear anyone breathing.
The minister can't even preach the sermon until the deacon does what he has to do.
And now they see this elderly man drop his cane on the floor. With
great difficulty, he lowers himself and sits down next to Tim and
worships with him so he won't be alone.
Everyone chokes up with emotion...
When the minister gains control, he says,
'What I'm about to preach, you will never remember. What you have just seen, you will never forget.'
'Be careful how you live. You may be the only Bible some people will ever read!'
We need to reach out to the world, not wait for them to come to us.
===============================================================
June 23
I kept wanting to catch you at church, but it seems hard to do. The reason I have not been attending Wednesday nights is because both Cherie and I are attending Odessa College at night. This course will last at least 8 weeks. We still pray for you, every day, that God would help you see the things He desires to be revealed.
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By this time I have sent the 20 page letter. Sure, it was a lot but I figured it to be a last chance to communicate with the pastor I love and am concerned for.
July 18
Dear Jannie,
Thank you for responding to my letter. At least it is some communication, no matter how small the level. Your letter provides some insight into your thoughts. My hope is even that will help me understand what is going on with you. So please let me respond to your letter. You said I started trying to force you to do what I wanted and that was in the emails I sent. I just read through all 83 emails that show up with your name on it. I’m confused, don’t see anyplace where I used scripture or was demanding anything in the emails. I asked only to sit down with my pastor and talk. What is wrong with that?
You said I told you that you had thrown money at you instead of fellowship. I never said that. Where did that come from? We never asked the church for help with the bathroom. We never planned on remodeling the bathroom. That was Linda’s idea and doing from the start and we not only had nothing to do with it but were surprised. So Ricardo came out, tore the wall out of the bathroom, and I helped him carry the bathtub out of the house. Then we were stuck with no tub, no sink, and only a toilet sitting in a room without a wall, for six months. We sent a thank you card and told you how much we appreciated the $500 dollars you, or the church, gave us towards what turned into a $2700 dollar project we hadn’t asked for. That project started with a lie. You and the men you brought out asked “Where’s the water hose?” because you had been told that was all we had for water in the bathroom.
You speak of me shrinking when you touched me. Really? I grew up in a home with no love and no contact, no hugs, then spent years in prison, so am not a touchy feely kind of guy. You choose to make judgments based on that? Are you for real?
Then comes the statement “There have been several that say you have a problem with women”. This reveals that indeed you and others have sat around gossiping about me, casting your opinions and judgments out, yet not one of you have talked with me to any length.
Jannie, what is going on here? I don’t dare use a scripture because no matter what I use it will be interpreted as my using the bible to manipulate you. I could say “Jesus said we should be in unity” (which He did) and somehow that is a bad thing. You have been wrong and I am following the Word as my guide. Please tell me who you respect enough to receive from and I will present this to them, as Jesus commanded in Mathew 18:15. If you wish I will send another copy of the letter I wrote to save you some embarrassment. We love you and came to this church because God directed us here. This is God’s idea, not mine. I am your servant.
Love in Christ, bob westbrook
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FINALLY, HERE'S THE BIG LETTER.
Dear Jannie,
I must obey the Lord and follow the scriptures, otherwise I am just a hypocrite and the truth is not in me.
Mathew 5:23 "Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your offering there before the altar and go ; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.” I have asked multiples of times for a chance to talk with you. Still have all the emails I sent and some you responded to but ignored the part where I asked to sit down and talk. It’s clear that there is something in your heart regarding me.
The hidden revealed
“If anyone wants to move into a higher level with the Lord, come up and be prayed for” you announced from the pulpit. Of course I desire a higher level with the Lord, for I was called into the ministry over thirty years ago and have dedicated my life to serving where ever the Lord leads, so I came forward. There were about sixteen others who came forward too and I was somewhere in the middle of the line. You proceeded to pray for people one at a time, confidently laying your hands on them and having a word from the Lord for each individual. However, when you came to me something changed. There was great hesitancy and it almost seemed that you were afraid to touch me. I watched as your hand trembled when you reached towards my forehead, almost touching but not quite. Two fingers made contact and you immediately pulled your hand back, as if you feared some kind something would jump out at you. Then your shaking hand managed to make scant contact as you forced yourself to continue and you started praying, seeming to have problems finding the words to say. I wondered all this time what was wrong, what possibly was going through your mind to cause this. It was strange to say the least, and about to get stranger.
You started out with words that were not positive, not at all like the prayers and “words from the Lord” you had given to all before me. It was when the word “Deceit” came out of your mouth that God stopped you cold, your words halted in mid sentence. I opened my eyes to see your face and watched as you struggled inside. “No, that wasn’t the Lord. That was me” you said almost inaudibly, and there was a pause as you evidently listened to God. “This is what the Lord says, not me” was the next thing I heard. “You really do know the word of God, you do know the Lord, you do” was next. For this your hand no longer trembled and the fear of touching me seemed to vanish away.
Your explanation
The following Wednesday I had to insist you sit down and talk with me, something you seem anxious never to do. I asked what had happened that Sunday and your explanation was “I was just praying in the natural” and made light of it. How about we search out the truth of the matter, for God is light, in whom there is no darkness. “In the natural” is just a nice way of saying “in the flesh”. There is nothing hidden that God does not see, and all things will be brought out and exposed when we stand before Him on that last day. John 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
God’s hand on me regarding this
I didn’t want to write this letter, I’ve resisted the Lord in this, but He made it clear I can no longer put it off. A few Sunday’s ago I came in from working on the farm with Ezekiel 33 strong in my spirit, so I immediately looked it up. This is one of the ways the Lord speaks to me and it spelled things out clearly, regarding my responsibility as a servant of the King of Kings.
Ezekiel 33:1 And the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 "Son of man, speak to the sons of your people and say to them, 'If I bring a sword upon a land, and the people of the land take one man from among them and make him their watchman, 3 and he sees the sword coming upon the land and blows on the trumpet and warns the people, 4 then he who hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, and a sword comes and takes him away, his blood will be on his own head. 5 'He heard the sound of the trumpet but did not take warning ; his blood will be on himself. But had he taken warning, he would have delivered his life. 6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity ; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.'
As I put off writing this further God showed me several other scriptures, and amazingly enough several teachers I listen to on television taught on those exact scriptures as well. Jannie, I don’t pretend to be anything but a child of God. I am no prophet, but God speaks through me when He desires. If need be God will speak through a donkey to get His message delivered.
1 Corinthians 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."
I have had one word from the Lord for someone at the church. I later learned for a fact every bit of that word came true, though that person has been effective in hiding it from you. After that, from the pulpit, you talked about people who get “words from the Lord” but aren’t really hearing from God. The scriptures tell us to not “Despise prophetic utterances” and that all prophecies are to be judged by the church, not by one person. Please be careful. You spoke from the pulpit of how we need to know the word of God and how we need to do what it says. Thus I am writing to you, obeying the scriptural commands, and you.
Mathew 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church;
I don’t know what you have received in your heart about me, other than what God revealed when you spoke in prayer over me, but I do know there is something deep inside that is not good. I’ve tried many times to talk with you, but to no avail. You have spoken from the pulpit about those who wish to talk to you and “Be your best friend” and expressed your dislike of that, stating that the more they push the harder you will resist. You do understand, don’t you, that this is the definition of hardening your heart and having a stiff neck? You have also talked publicly about those who use the bible to try and get you to do what they want, and explained how you will always resist that too, because you don’t like anyone pushing you. But did you, in the process of resisting, possibly find yourself ignoring God trying to speak to you?
Some fruit (By their fruit you will recognize them Mathew 7:16)
A few weeks ago I waited patiently for you to be free, making sure not to interrupt your conversation or give you any more reason to think ill of me, trying to show as much respect of you and your time as possible. “Are you waiting to talk to me?” you said so I started the conversation I thought lightly, always walking on eggshells with you and trying hard to not cause offense. It seems that anything I say is received darkly. “Ron Charles is coming in June, I thought you might want to meet him” I said. “I already met Ron” was your curt reply and you reminded me you had stopped in and said hello while he was taping at GLC. That’s not the same as having a chance to sit down and talk with him, one of the greatest men of God I know.
What I was most interested in was trying to help you get a better understand the Kairos Prison Ministry, and was forced to follow you down the hall, trying to talk as you hurried away from me. “Did Randy ever get a chance to explain how Kairos works?” I managed to say by the time you reached the lobby. “I knew about Kairos long before Randy ever did” you snapped back. I was surprised and taken aback at this. I struggled to explain the ways churches can be involved in this ministry. “Oh, your talking about your prison ministry” you said, seeming to understand you had misinterpreted what I was talking about before, and settling down a bit. I managed to get permission to ask your daughter about having the children make placemats for the prisoners before you cut me off by saying “I need to check on the people playing music” and walked away while I was still talking. Jannie, I’m always careful to submit to your authority and not do anything without your approval, well aware of the underlying bad feelings you have towards me. When I started ministering at the Stanton jail I came to you to put that under your authority and make sure it was seen as a part of Hosanna’s outreach. All of the hundreds of people who dedicate some of their time serving the Lord in this prison ministry have great support from their churches, except me. When they ask about Hosanna getting involved I don’t know what to say and desiring not to say anything bad, I don’t say anything other than “my pastors real busy”.
Hebrews 13:16 And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased. 17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.
Why I am writing this
This won’t be a short letter as I endeavor to be clear and insure that there is no room for our mutual enemy to twist things, as he has proven to be so adept at doing, and besides that, God has a lot to say. Please read this, and recognize the spirit in which I write it, to build up and not tear down. And, again, my desire is to help you be better at what you do.
Colossians 1:28 We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ. 29 For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.
There is another spirit, one that desires to divide and prevent any good work of God, and block communication between the saints. The moment you saw this letter I’ll bet that spirit stirred you up, creating in you feelings that are not indicative of the love of Christ, that were not pure and holy. Thus you should be able to discern the source as not being from our Holy creator. This letter is not an attack on you Jannie. It is, however, the first step in me obeying God.
Jannie I am not your enemy. I have no plans or designs regarding you or Hosanna. We didn’t want to come to this church, We were happy and accepted where we were. We have made lasting friendships with people that are happy to travel forty miles to visit us in our home. That hasn’t seemed to have happened at Hosanna. People here seem to keep their distance. We came because God told me too. I resisted that for two years. Every time I would drive past God would quicken my spirit, but I ignored this, saying (as many of us are prone to do when God says what we don’t want to hear) that it was just my imagination. It wasn’t until two men of God, giants in the spiritual community here, both of whom you know, independently spoke words of wisdom to me, unaware of the conflict I’d had inside, that I was able to finally hear what God had been telling me for so long. He didn’t say why I was to come, other than “There is great need”. One of them contacted you, and then you called me and invited us to come.
We love you Jannie, and are here to support you and submit to your leadership. But the devil knew we were coming and has worked hard to insure that there would be a wall between us. It is with sadness I must recognize that he has been successful, so far. As a soldier in the army of the Lord I will fight against all the works of the devil and will see victory. Knowing how our enemy works I wouldn’t be surprised that he has worked in the hearts of others to create suspicion and the impression that I am someone not to be trusted, a trouble maker whom you should keep your distance from. I don’t know this, just wouldn’t be surprised.
Proverbs 6:12 A worthless person, a wicked man, Is the one who walks with a perverse mouth, 13 Who winks with his eyes, who signals with his feet, Who points with his fingers ; 14 Who with perversity in his heart continually devises evil, Who spreads strife. 15 Therefore his calamity will come suddenly ; Instantly he will be broken and there will be no healing. 16 There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers.
God corrected you, did you listen?
God corrected you in mid sentence that day you prayed for me. Question for you, have you corrected your heart based on what He showed you that day, or have you stubbornly persisted in your error? Do you still harbor the resentment, envy, jealousy, or whatever it is that remains at the root of your opinion of me. The evidence indicates you still maintain that stain in your spirit. This is not good Jannie, and needs to be brought out into the light of God so it can be dealt with. Not only for your own good but for the good of the flock you have taken the responsibility to shepherd. I repeat what was in the Hebrews 13 scripture earlier in this letter “they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account” because it is my desire that you be found not lacking in any area on that final day.
Who do you think I am? What have you received concerning me, and where did what you received come from? Because the Lord has revealed to me that you are unwilling to receive from me due to the judgment in your heart, I will quote a lot of scripture, for it is the word of God and the means by which we should measure and judge all things. It’s no coincidence that this one is what you preached on May 22. God has been reaching out to you for some time.
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness ; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Please remember your words regarding this scripture. You said that in your thirty years of ministry you’ve found that many people are unwilling to receive correction. Does that mean you stop trying to correct them? You spoke on that again on June 5, of how people need to accept correction.
Proverbs 17:10 A rebuke goes deeper into one who has understanding than a hundred blows into a fool.
Proverbs 27:5 Better is open rebuke Than love that is concealed. 6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy.
In one of your emails to me you said “I knew I shouldn’t have been honest with you”. Since when do we, as representatives of Jesus, stop being honest? In another you stated “Somehow. I knew you would not receive what I said. It was only to help you. I am not threatened by any one. I know who I am and who set me where I am. I will not carry this any further”.
I read back through that email and could only see where I agreed with you and stated that you showed me areas I need to work on, so was once again left wondering what happened. There is a spirit here, a spirit you allowed in through your judgment of me, a spirit that distorts what you see and hear. That’s the danger of judgment, for once you develop an opinion of someone everything you see and hear is filtered through that opinion, and thus stained.
At the same time though, I’ve heard you talking many times recently about those who know the word of God but who do not have the Spirit of God, and thus have no power in their lives. In fact this seems to be a regular comment you often make. Who is this directed at?
Jannie, you have operated in the deliverance ministry for years now. Of all people you should understand the basics and dangers of spiritual warfare. No one is immune from being deceived. This is why Paul gave instructions that all prophecy is to be judged (1 Corinthians 14:29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said) and 1 John says 1:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
How do you test the spirits? By the Word of God and by the fruits produced from them, and also by publicly putting things out for examination by the church. What has been the fruit of what you hold in your heart about me? The fruit so far is separation, distrust, judgment, and gossip as you shared your thoughts and concerns with others. It has not been the love and acceptance of Jesus Christ, a welcoming joyful unity in the Holy Spirit.
Who am I?
Who am I? I am a sinner saved by grace, as you are. I am no better than you or anyone else anywhere. I am a precious child whom Christ loves, one of the least perhaps but still a member of the flock. I was raised from the dead for a reason Jannie. When I woke from the coma I couldn’t remember my age, didn’t recognize streets I’d driven for 25 years, or much else, but I could remember the word of God and quote scriptures. This was God’s doing. The hand of God has been strong on our life, with miracles and providence regularly evident. With that has come strong opposition from our mutual enemy, who is adept at creating division and discord, and who recognizes God has plans to use us for His glory. Do you not understand that we are on the same side? Yet it seems that you hinder me, avoid me, and act as if I am an enemy.
If I have a fault that would cause this, why haven’t you come to me? Why haven’t you made efforts to correct the perceived error in me? Mathew 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. (I will be following this instruction from our Lord as we work through this)
This isn’t about me
Ultimately, Jannie, this isn’t about me. I personally don’t take offense regarding any perceived slight or discrimination. I am unimportant, but you however, are a shepherd with the responsibility of leading a flock, and with that responsibility comes accountability. So this is about you, but more importantly, what God is greatly concerned about, it is ultimately about God’s flock, His dear children whom you have accepted responsibility for. These things have been revealed to me for a purpose, and I believe that purpose is the reason God sent me here to Hosanna. He has seen your heart, and I suspect has been trying to get your attention for a while. It is often the case that the ones we are most blind to are ourselves. We see the faults in others long before we see them in us. Mathew 7:1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged ; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. 3 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye ? 4 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye ? 5 "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
“Why don’t you apply that scripture to yourself, Robert!” I’m sure could come to your mind as you read this. Believe me I have and that is why I struggled for so long about writing this, resisting the Holy Spirit in many ways for months now. I am far from perfect and am in many ways just a child, but it is the foolish things of the world that confound the wise and God often uses the weak to teach the strong. (Remember, you just used this scripture in your “Nuggets” column of the Stanton paper) Please bear with me on this. It is only your good and the good of the church I desire. We tried for almost a year to be able to sit down and just talk, but you have resisted that in no uncertain terms.
Galatians 6:1 Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness ; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.
Gossip
Gossip is one of the devils favorite tools, and often that gossip is disguised as legitimate conversation regarding important spiritual matters in the church. From these words seeds are planted, seeds of discontent, distrust, and judgment. Who is quick to come and tell you about me? Have your words to others regarding me been those that build up, or tear down, or those that plant seeds of doubt? Strange how you just talked about planting seeds in your sermon on 5/21/11. Actually, that is no accident for I’ve been praying for months that God open your eyes to yourself. What did you say to Helen at Women’s Aglow regarding me that caused her to email and cancel indefinitely my opportunity to tell of the wonderful love of God and how He restored my life, faith, and marriage, saying that she would have to now pray about it?
James 3:5 So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things. See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire ! 6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity ; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.
Speak the truth
So lets speak the truth and uncover that which has been hidden. You have judged me, period. There is no question about it. I once brought that up, in one of my many attempts to talk things out, and your response was “I haven’t judged you. I just observed you”. Do you really deceive yourself that bad? I remind you of what you said to me in your prayer, when you said I didn’t know the Word and was deceitful (your words). There is a reason God has made these things evident, revealed them clearly through your own mouth.
(from email you sent dated 1/4/11) “I have just been observing you from the time you started coming to church. When you started talking about some of the people in this town, [and bitterness showed] I have just changed the subject”
This seed of judgment, which you allowed into your heart, has placed a poison in you that affects your opinion and comes out in the words you speak. Confident in your ability to accurately judge, based on outward appearance, you then, thinking you are doing the work of God, inform others of these “problems” in me, and thus spread the poison Satan placed in your heart. Do you understand that in doing so you violate the very heart of God, and His commandment “Love your neighbor as yourself”?
You made the judgment that what you saw was bitterness. I am not bitter, I am saddened and hurt by what I see in so many churches. Was Jesus bitter when he railed against the hypocrisy of the Pharisees? No, He was outraged, but I suspect that by your standard it would be interpreted as bitterness. I love the Lord, and His people, but my heart breaks at what I see. All the prophets of old also had this deep troubling in their spirits regarding the things they saw around them, and in speaking the truth were persecuted and killed.
Discernment?
You quoted the scripture “The eyes are a window to the soul” from the pulpit, confident it is in the bible. It isn’t. I took a concordance and looked at every scripture that has the word “Eye” in it. That is not a scripture, it is a lie commonly told in the world, one you have received whole heartedly. When I told of how people have judged me based on outward appearance one Sunday, you looked at me and said “But I have discernment”. Really? The word of God only talks about a gift of discerning of spirits and the scriptures in Hebrew 5:14 says “But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil. We are instructed to be careful and to test the spirits because our enemy is a master of deception and anxious to use our pride against us. Again, what is the fruit of your “Discernment”? Has it been love, fellowship, unity in Christ?
What the bible does say regarding the eye is this, Mathew 6:22 "The eye is the lamp of the body ; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. 23 "But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness !
It’s clear from this is, it is how you see things that is important. If your heart is polluted by judgment or envy, what you see is equally polluted by that. Everything you see and hear is filtered by your heart and if your heart is bad so is your sight.
Luke 16:15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts ; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.
Here’s an interesting thing God showed me in the bible. Remember when Paul was getting ready to go to Jerusalem? You will find this in Acts chapter 20 and 21. Paul knew that there was trouble waiting for him, God had revealed this many times to not only him but others in the church. Acts 21:10 As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, "This is what the Holy Spirit says : 'In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.
All of the people around Paul tried to talk him out of going, many times and from many places. Finally Paul said, in vs 13 Then Paul answered, "What are you doing, weeping and breaking my heart ? For I am ready not only to be bound, but even to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus." 14 And since he would not be persuaded, we fell silent, remarking, "The will of the Lord be done !"
The point of this is that, while hearing a clear word from the Holy Spirit these people interpreted it according to the desires of their heart, and thus bothered Paul with their incorrect response. When our hearts are not pure what we hear from God becomes stained by selfish motives, and thus polluted. You speak of discernment as if it’s a special gift that allows you to read the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Only God can do that. In the word of God discernment is only talked about in two places.
Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
1 Corinthians 12:10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, (Distinguishing is translated Discerning in other translations)
And that’s it. No where does it say that we, as spirit filled believers, have the power and ability to read peoples minds, or know their hearts. In fact, that is an occult practice, something commonly used in witchcraft and other demonic activities, the realm of psychics and mind readers. You once again spoke of being able to look into someone’s eyes and “read” them on June 26th. It appears that for you discernment is a license to pass judgment and it is just your personal opinion, the same one you expressed when praying for me, manifesting itself under the guise of spirituality. God is not pleased with this. Your pride has opened a door for deception.
1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." Janie, the fact is, you have NEVER taken the time to talk with me, nor have you invested any effort to get to know who I am. In fact, you have studiously avoided doing so. What you have done is created an opinion of me based on outer appearance and it appears that you have nurtured and held on to that judgment despite the Lord correcting you that one day you prayed “for” me. I’m not even sure you were praying for me, it seems like you prayed against me. Is this the love that is patient, kind, and sees no evil? Is this something that pleases Jesus, whose blood cleanses us both from sin?
Proverbs 21:2 Every man's way is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts. 3 To do righteousness and justice Is desired by the LORD more than sacrifice. 4 Haughty eyes and a proud heart, The lamp of the wicked, is sin
What is the purpose of discernment in the body of Christ? It is to tell the difference between good and evil and it is to be able to identify demonic activity, all for the good of the body of Christ. God gives discernment to enable you to minister to the needs of others, to help them gain victory over that which oppresses them, and to overcome the wiles of our enemy. This is God’s desire and our duty as His servants, that we may all be presented before Him perfect and holy. It is NOT to pass judgment and spread that judgmental attitude to others like a poison that spreads it’s infection. So if you “discerned” any evil in me, why have you not attempted to minister to me in any way?
Now, on to other concerns, things we have seen. Again I remind you, these words are not meant as a personal attack, nor are they designed to demean you, but my desire is to strengthen you and see God’s will accomplished.
Do you really think so poorly of everyone at Hosanna?
When we first came to Hosanna, you talked with us briefly a couple of times when we stayed after the service was over. Once, as you explained how things are in the church, you said “The people here can’t handle meat, so in Sunday school I only feed them milk”. That was one of the strangest things I’ve ever heard out of a pastors mouth. Do you really think so poorly of your congregation? Do you not understand that God will hold you accountable? Do you not also understand that if those who have been under your care for however many years are unable to handle anything other than milk, it is your fault? Debra repeated this idea as she taught one time, saying, “There are those who want to teach meat but don’t seem to understand that we need milk, and can’t handle meat”.
Now I know what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food ; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men ?
As I read this I wondered about what it is that has caused your attitude towards me. Is it jealousy Jannie? Is it envy? Only you can answer that question, and that only if you are willing to be honest with yourself and God, who already knows the deep things of your heart.
James 4:1 What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members ? 2 You lust and do not have ; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain ; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God ? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose : "He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us"? 6 But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, "GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE." 7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners ; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
(Another scripture you used from the pulpit)
But back to milk. Hebrews 5:11 Concerning him (Christ) we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
On 5/22/11, in your sermon, you preached about how we all need to know the word of God, follow the word of God, and make it a vital part of our life. Are you so blind to your own words that you do not see what you have done? You eliminated Sunday school, because it was inconvenient and because you said that other full gospel churches start their services at ten. Really? Have they also eliminated Sunday school?
The standard I find used to teach Sunday evenings and Wednesdays seems to be, take a concordance, write down a bunch of scriptures that deal with whatever word was chosen, have people read them out loud, and ask “What do you think about that?” I remind you of your sermon that day, when you talked of how people don’t want to receive a rebuke, remember your own words Jannie for you are about to hear a rebuke. I will be honest, and blunt. This way of presenting the Word of God is lazy, it is not feeding His sheep, whom God dearly loves so much He sent His son to die for. Here is the scripture you started a sermon out with.
2 Timothy 3:16 14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness ; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Let me add another to that.
James 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
And what is God’s heart concerning those who have taken on the responsibility of being a shepherd? If you are a good shepherd there is great reward, but if not…
Ezekiel 34:1 Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, 2 "Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel. Prophesy and say to those shepherds, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Woe, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flock ? 3 "You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fat sheep without feeding the flock. 4 "Those who are sickly you have not strengthened, the diseased you have not healed, the broken you have not bound up, the scattered you have not brought back, nor have you sought for the lost ; but with force and with severity you have dominated them. 5 "They were scattered for lack of a shepherd, and they became food for every beast of the field and were scattered. 6 "My flock wandered through all the mountains and on every high hill ; My flock was scattered over all the surface of the earth, and there was no one to search or seek for them.""' 7 Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD : 8 "As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "surely because My flock has become a prey, My flock has even become food for all the beasts of the field for lack of a shepherd, and My shepherds did not search for My flock, but rather the shepherds fed themselves and did not feed My flock ; 9 therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD : 10 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will demand My sheep from them and make them cease from feeding sheep. So the shepherds will not feed themselves anymore, but I will deliver My flock from their mouth, so that they will not be food for them.""'
I fear for you
Jannie, I fear for you, and for the flock that is under your care. You are a shepherd, and with that comes great responsibility, along with a tremendous burden. Have you become weary of the ministry? Do you not understand that you are not supposed to handle the whole load? The early church wasn’t set up the way churches often are now today, with one person at the helm taking on all the responsibility. Do you not understand that when you feed your flock only milk they stay infants? And as infants they need to be coddled and cared for, unable to stand on their own two feet, and because of that your job ends up being a babysitter.
Hebrews 5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek. 11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
You pride yourself on…many things, but your knowledge of the Word of God is one of them. Do I need to teach you the basics you already learned again? You really don’t know who I am, for you decided to not find out, having already developed your opinion of me early on. Jannie, do you have others, outside of the church, to hold you up, and provide the spiritual support you need? One of the problems with being a pastor is the isolation you experience. You are always giving and seldom receiving. It is a lonely place. “No one understands what it’s like to be a pastor” you have moaned more than once. I do understand and God sent us to help minister to you, if you would allow it.
Romans 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think ; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. 4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith ; 7 if service, in his serving ; or he who teaches, in his teaching ; 8 or he who exhorts, in his exhortation ; he who gives, with liberality ; he who leads, with diligence ; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. 9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil ; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love ; give preference to one another in honor ; 11 not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord ; 12 rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer, 13 contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality. 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another ; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. 17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.
In class, a few weeks ago, as Debra taught, I made a comment regarding taking scriptures out of context. You seemed to take great offense at that, speaking up right away about how you know great men of God who do this, along with a few other pointed comments. Here is a perfect example of how the judgment in your heart effects your perception. What you don’t seem to know is that I was simply repeating what Debra had said just a few weeks earlier, trying to show support for her. When she said that it drew no response from you and seemed to be perfectly fine, but when I repeated her words, it was not received. The truth is that there have sometimes been scriptures taken so badly out of context as to defy the author’s original thought. Sometimes they have been only parts of sentences that had been divided at a comma.
2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
Despising those whom God loves
Do you realize that in your heart you despise some people, and that you mock and make fun of them from the pulpit? I expect that when you read this all kinds of righteous indignation will rise up. So let me explain and relate what we see from our chairs as you preach. First let me put up the definition of the word despise as found in the bible.
Katafroneo - Despise
Definition - to contemn, despise, disdain, think little or nothing of
NAS Word Usage - Total: 9despise 5, despising 1, disrespectful 1, look down 1, think lightly 1
Mathew 15:18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
It is almost every week that I hear you talk about those who “Want everyone to do for them, but don’t want to do for themselves”. Who are these people that upset you so much you must talk about them from the pulpit and as you teach in class? What have they done that is so bad? Please hear what Jesus had to say about them.
Mathew 18:2 And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, 3 and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 "Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 "And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven. 11 ["For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.]
You may be questioning me, “What does that have to do with people who want others to do everything for them?” so let me explain. Jesus said we all must become like children to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Do you not realize that children need to be cared for? Plus they need to be taught and raised up to stand on their own two feet.
“I don’t despise anyone” you will say with indignation, adding “I love everyone despite how they act”. Really? From the pulpit you talked about those people who’s attitude you don’t like, who do things you don’t think much of, but you love them anyway. Do you understand what Christ’s love is really about? When you first got saved you were instructed to spend your first month or two studying 1 Corinthians 13. Let me put that up here now. As you read it please think carefully if you have applied this to those you made fun of from the pulpit, and for that matter, tell me how you have applied this with me.
1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge ; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous ; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly ; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth ; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails ; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away ; if there are tongues, they will cease ; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part ; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child ; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face ; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three ; but the greatest of these is love.
At Women’s Aglow you mocked those who thought they were better than others, making faces as you made fun of how they looked down their noses at others. Do you not understand, that at the very moment you were saying those words you were doing the exact same thing, looking down your nose at them?
As you mocked from the pulpit those who complained that you don’t minister in the way they think you should, making faces to mimic them, I heard God’s people in the church laugh and applaud with you. That’s when it struck home. You are, as their leader and shepherd, creating in them the same heart and attitude you have. I almost cried and can only imagine what my Lord felt too. This should not be. You should be leading them to love and care for others, not to despise and think little of them.
Mark 9:35 Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, "If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all." 36 Taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them, 37 "Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me."
This is how our dear Lord views it. The way we treat others is how we treat Jesus. He takes it very personally. Just a little farther down Jesus says "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.
Read what Jesus said in Mathew 25 that really brings this home.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat ; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink ; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink ? 38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels ; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat ; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink ; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
There it is, clear as day. How we treat, and talk about, others, Jesus regards as how we treat Him. Even the least of His little ones, the ones who are immature and far from perfect, are loved by Jesus, who has been with them from day one. So when you mock and make fun Janie, Jesus is receiving your words personally.
Janie, the very people you think so little of, the ones who vex you the most, are the ones God wishes to build the church with. It is the rejected and despised of the world He reaches out to. You complain of those in church not being able to handle meat, of only being able to receive milk, but there is so much you don’t seem to understand. Children need to have their diapers changed, they need others to do for them and can’t do for themselves, they are all the things you mock from the pulpit. It is our jobs to teach children how to walk, how to talk, how to take care of themselves, to help them grow into adults who can take care of themselves. But when we feed them only milk they stay infants, and we bear the responsibility.
James 2:1 My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong? 8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.
One Sunday, after you had called folks forward for prayer, you again made fun of the ones who didn’t come forward. “If you don’t want to get prayed for you will just stay sick” you said, and laughed at whomever unnamed person you were referring too. How do you expect others to have faith? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, so if you only feed milk, why do you expect great faith?
Mocking is not pleasing to God. They mocked and made fun of Jesus both before He was nailed on the cross, and after. Mathew 27:27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole Roman cohort around Him. 28 They stripped Him and put a scarlet robe on Him. 29 And after twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand ; and they knelt down before Him and mocked Him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews !" 30 They spat on Him, and took the reed and began to beat Him on the head. 31 After they had mocked Him, they took the scarlet robe off Him and put His own garments back on Him, and led Him away to crucify Him.
39 And those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads 40 and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself ! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross." 41 In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes and elders, were mocking Him and saying, 42 "He saved others ; He cannot save Himself. He is the King of Israel ; let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe in Him. 43 "HE TRUSTS IN GOD ; LET GOD RESCUE Him now, IF HE DELIGHTS IN HIM; for He said, 'I am the Son of God.' "
You seem to enjoy doing this, making fun of those who offend you. It gets a response from the audience and that goads you further, like it does an entertainer on a stage. I watch as you make faces and wonder, if I had the gift of discerning of spirits, what spirit would I be seeing. What I do have is a glimpse of the heart of God and His word, so I know there is nothing that pleases our Lord, who died for all of us, in this.
Romans 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord ; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. 10 But you, why do you judge your brother ? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt ? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." 12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this -not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
Tired of people using the bible against you?
You said that you were tired of people using the bible to get you to do what they wanted. Is it possible that people are just trying to get you to do what God wants you to do? Isn’t that what you do from the pulpit, use the scriptures to explain what God desires of us?
Speaking of that, there have been at least seven time now that you have brought up the scriptures in Hebrews regarding how it’s impossible for someone to be restored to God once they have fallen away. While this is the word of God I have to wonder about this. When you brought it up last Sunday (5/29) it really didn’t pertain to your sermon, you stated that you “felt led” to read it. Frankly, I have never heard a preacher speak on this, and truly believe they need to, instead of tickling their congregations ears, but I have to wonder why you bring this up so often. You know my testimony, how I fell into sin, so are you trying to discourage me? Do you believe I’m doomed to hell? Is that why you are so uncomfortable and run from me?
This is the scripture that bothers me the most, fills me with fear, for I did fall from the faith. The devil knows this and appears to have used you to stab me with it, time and again. Like you said in church today (June 5, 2011) it’s the people in church who hurt others of the faith the most. But what does it say right before that scripture in Hebrews 10? 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful ; 24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
What have you done to stimulate me to love and good deeds? How have you encouraged me with the prison ministry? Your happy to assemble and fellowship with others, but not me. You come up to me on Sunday morning asking “How are you doing” but walk off without waiting for an answer.
I’d like to take a moment and look at that scripture you keep quoting in Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
It says “Go on sinning”, an important distinction. It is always vitally important to look at all scripture regarding a subject, not pull out one or two that say what you want them to say. 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
Jesus, when asked how many times a person should forgive someone replied “not seven times, but seventy times seven”. In Romans 6 Paul says “Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness ; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Yes, I sinned for 20 years. But God, in His mercy and grace, raised me from the dead, literally. Romans 9:14 What shall we say then ? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
I repented of my sin and have had my life, wife, mind, and faith restored, and am a walking miracle. Why is it you don’t seem to rejoice with me in that? What is the source of this envy, resentment, and jealousy I discern.
You told me in an email once “Don’t take things so personally”. What do you want me to do, ignore what you say? Jannie, you are my pastor and I submit to your leadership, so every word you say I apply to my life, as I believe we all should. Does that mean I take it personally, as in a personal attack? Look at it from my point of view. I have a pastor who refuses to talk with me despite repeated requests, and who seems to address issues with statements from the pulpit that are general but pointed. I send an email asking if you could take a few minutes to meet with us and the next Sunday you make a disapproving statement, from the pulpit, about how people want to be your friend and spend time with you, expressing clearly that you “Don’t have time for that”.
Sharing the limelight
It is by your words that you will be judged. This holds true for all of us. I have prayed and prayed that God opens your eyes to see what is in your heart, and I have seen evidence that God is doing so. However it seems that, while you see errors, you fail to see when they apply to you. You spoke from the pulpit of those who refuse to share the “limelight” (your words) of those who, because of jealousy, envy, pride, and resentment, are unwilling to allow others to minister or to share in any of the activities of the church. As you spoke I wondered at how you were unable to see yourself. You wrote in the nuggets column and spoke from the pulpit about envy, how others in the ministry need to allow those who have come out of drug addictions and other issues to tell their story. “Everyone has a story to tell” you said, subtly adding your feelings about how drug addicts who come up into the ministry can be an irritant.
While I don’t know, because I don’t read minds or hearts, I wonder if envy and jealousy are part of the reason you seem to have such a great distaste for me. You say “I have discernment” and hang on to that as your justification for how you feel and act. You have everyone else teach except me, so it is obvious there is something wrong there. All I want to do is serve where I can, and have offered to do so many times, but with only a cold shoulder as response. God told you, when you prayed for me, that I do know the Word of God, but that seems to not be the issue.
James 4:1 What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members ? 2 You lust and do not have ; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain ; so you fight and quarrel.
Janie, I pray and study the word two to four hours each day as a general rule, though some days lately I haven’t been able to between college, work, and farming but praying I can always do while I work. I graduated from Christ for the Nations bible college, was ordained, and have been involved in a wide variety of ministries over the years, including building a church. There is no question I know the word of God. I ask you bluntly, Does this bother you? Are you envious, or do you resent this background and history? Do you feel that I will steal your limelight? I don’t care what you or anyone else thinks of me, with the exception of how it affects your relationship with Christ. I only care what God thinks of me, as in the end that is all that matters.
So lets talk about what God has revealed to me. You have said, in your heart and also with your mind, regarding Debra “I pass my scepter on to you”. Jannie, it is not your scepter, and it is not your place to pass it on. This is the Lords decision.
2 Corinthians 10:17 But he who boasts is to boast in the Lord. 18 For it is not he who commends himself that is approved, but he whom the Lord commends.
Perhaps this is the source of your judgment, you see me as a threat to Debra and the plans you have devised for her. I don’t know, you do, and so does the Lord, with whom nothing is hidden. I just know what I see. This might explain another strange thing I have seen from you. We know that the devil is a liar and the father of all lies, and that there is no deceit to be found with the Lord. Remember when Debra said “There is a man in this church, who wants to stand at the pulpit but who isn’t willing to lift his hand to clean a toilet”? I emailed you the next day and reminded I had offered to clean toilets and asked again if you needed someone to do so. When next you saw me in church you came up to me and quickly explained that Debra was just using a figure of speech that is commonly used regarding cleaning toilets. That was not the truth. She was specific about a particular person, who’s name she didn’t give, and her dislike of this was pretty clear. Why would you feel compelled to not tell the truth in this?
False prophets and false doctrine
Acts 20:27 "For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. 28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock ; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 "Therefore be on the alert
You said, from the pulpit, that you pray you will not be led into error. Praying is good but here is an area where it is important to consult with others. Remember the film about the guy who said he went to hell? No where in the scriptures does it indicate hell is a place where demons gleefully get to torture anyone. This is a lie that comes from a book called Dante’s inferno, written by a man after a night of smoking opium. Hell was made for the devil and his angels, it is a place they will be punished, and their punishment in no way means they get to torture or cause misery for anyone else. This man has made lots of money through selling his book and the movie, but it is as unscriptural as it can be, yet many respected leaders in the Christian world have bought into it.
2 Corinthians 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.
Jeremiah 23 – The word of the Lord concerning shepherds who do not care for the flock and false prophets who interpret dreams and give false hope, always saying “Peace” when there is no peace and tell those who follow the stubbornness of their heart “No harm will come to you”. 16 Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you. They are leading you into futility ; They speak a vision of their own imagination, Not from the mouth of the LORD. 17 "They keep saying to those who despise Me, 'The LORD has said, "You will have peace "'; And as for everyone who walks in the stubbornness of his own heart, They say, 'Calamity will not come upon you.' 18 "But who has stood in the council of the LORD, That he should see and hear His word ? Who has given heed to His word and listened ? 19 "Behold, the storm of the LORD has gone forth in wrath, Even a whirling tempest ; It will swirl down on the head of the wicked. 20 "The anger of the LORD will not turn back Until He has performed and carried out the purposes of His heart ; In the last days you will clearly understand it. 21 "I did not send these prophets, But they ran. I did not speak to them, But they prophesied. 22 "But if they had stood in My council, Then they would have announced My words to My people, And would have turned them back from their evil way And from the evil of their deeds. 23 "Am I a God who is near," declares the LORD, "And not a God far off ? 24 "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth ?" declares the LORD. 25 "I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy falsely in My name, saying, 'I had a dream, I had a dream !' 26 "How long ? Is there anything in the hearts of the prophets who prophesy falsehood, even these prophets of the deception of their own heart, 27 who intend to make My people forget My name by their dreams which they relate to one another, just as their fathers forgot My name because of Baal ? 28 "The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain ?" declares the LORD. 29 "Is not My word like fire ?" declares the LORD, "and like a hammer which shatters a rock ? 30 "Therefore behold, I am against the prophets," declares the LORD, "who steal My words from each other. 31 "Behold, I am against the prophets," declares the LORD, "who use their tongues and declare, 'The Lord declares.' 32 "Behold, I am against those who have prophesied false dreams," declares the LORD, "and related them and led My people astray by their falsehoods and reckless boasting ; yet I did not send them or command them, nor do they furnish this people the slightest benefit,"
If a prophet only tells you what you want to hear, continually says “peace, peace” it is a good sign that they are a false prophet. Hear the word of God on that, as found in Ezekiel 13
1 Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, 2 "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who prophesy, and say to those who prophesy from their own inspiration, 'Listen to the word of the LORD ! 3 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Woe to the foolish prophets who are following their own spirit and have seen nothing. 4 "O Israel, your prophets have been like foxes among ruins. 5 "You have not gone up into the breaches, nor did you build the wall around the house of Israel to stand in the battle on the day of the LORD. 6 "They see falsehood and lying divination who are saying, 'The LORD declares,' when the LORD has not sent them; yet they hope for the fulfillment of their word. 7 "Did you not see a false vision and speak a lying divination when you said, 'The LORD declares,' but it is not I who have spoken ?""' 8 Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, "Because you have spoken falsehood and seen a lie, therefore behold, I am against you," declares the Lord GOD. 9 "So My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will have no place in the council of My people, nor will they be written down in the register of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel, that you may know that I am the Lord GOD. 10 "It is definitely because they have misled My people by saying, 'Peace !' when there is no peace. And when anyone builds a wall, behold, they plaster it over with whitewash ; 11 so tell those who plaster it over with whitewash, that it will fall. A flooding rain will come, and you, O hailstones , will fall ; and a violent wind will break out. 12 "Behold, when the wall has fallen, will you not be asked, 'Where is the plaster with which you plastered it?"' 13 Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, "I will make a violent wind break out in My wrath. There will also be in My anger a flooding rain and hailstones to consume it in wrath. 14 "So I will tear down the wall which you plastered over with whitewash and bring it down to the ground, so that its foundation is laid bare ; and when it falls, you will be consumed in its midst. And you will know that I am the LORD. 15 "Thus I will spend My wrath on the wall and on those who have plastered it over with whitewash ; and I will say to you, 'The wall is gone and its plasterers are gone, 16 along with the prophets of Israel who prophesy to Jerusalem, and who see visions of peace for her when there is no peace,' declares the Lord GOD. 17 "Now you, son of man, set your face against the daughters of your people who are prophesying from their own inspiration. Prophesy against them 18 and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Woe to the women who sew magic bands on all wrists and make veils for the heads of persons of every stature to hunt down lives ! Will you hunt down the lives of My people, but preserve the lives of others for yourselves? 19 "For handfuls of barley and fragments of bread, you have profaned Me to My people to put to death some who should not die and to keep others alive who should not live, by your lying to My people who listen to lies.""' 20 Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am against your magic bands by which you hunt lives there as birds and I will tear them from your arms ; and I will let them go, even those lives whom you hunt as birds. 21 "I will also tear off your veils and deliver My people from your hands, and they will no longer be in your hands to be hunted ; and you will know that I am the LORD. 22 "Because you disheartened the righteous with falsehood when I did not cause him grief, but have encouraged the wicked not to turn from his wicked way and preserve his life, 23 therefore, you women will no longer see false visions or practice divination, and I will deliver My people out of your hand. Thus you will know that I am the LORD."
Conclusion
There is much more that is on my heart, but you have already grown weary of reading this, so I will bring it to a close. Jannie, you have grown weary of doing good, the office you hold has worn you down, yet you hang on to it. On July 3rd Sunday, at the end of the service, you said that because it was the holiday and because not many had shown up that you would put it to a vote whether or not there would be service that night. “Any one who doesn’t want to have church tonight say “I”. Two, maybe three people said “I” so your response was “That was weak” and had us vote again. It was still weak but you persisted and said “I really hate to call off church”. That was a lie, you brought it up, you manipulated the people who love you and are anxious to please you, and you put it on them to deny serving God by going to church, You didn’t want church, you are tired. I would have been happy to teach that night or any other night, happy to give you a break, and I am sure there are many other willing to help you in this way too, but you hang on. God desires to grow the church, it is His church, not yours. Whether or not you see that growth is up to you, it will happen one way or another. God is watching and listening to your heart now, as you read this. We love you and wish to serve.
You have noticed that Cherie doesn’t come to church as often as she used to. What were the thoughts about that as you discussed “church” things with others? The fact is Cherie loves me very much, and our marriage is a miracle and direct result of the hand of God, but it disturbs her deeply to see your hypocrisy when it comes to me. As a result she has a hard time coming to church and watching how what you say is contradicted by your actions.
Have you noticed that your prayers don’t seem to have the power they used to? People love to claim the scripture “The gifts and calling of the Lord are without repentance.” That scripture specifically talks about the nation of Israel, not about spiritual gifts. In fact there are many instances where you find those who were called of God and even prophets, but because of sin the Spirit of God left them. King Saul is just one example, and so is Eli, the high priest. God so desires you to clean your heart and return to that right standing, and so do we.
I look forward to hearing from you. If you are unwilling to talk with me please let me know who in the body of Christ you respect enough to receive from, and I will come with them, as the scriptures command us to do.
Here are some other scriptures God brought up as I prayed and worked through this. I’m done now.
Titus 1:5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, 6 namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. 7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, 8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. 10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. 12 One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." 13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure ; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.
Romans 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. 3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think ; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. 4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith ; 7 if service, in his serving ; or he who teaches, in his teaching ; 8 or he who exhorts, in his exhortation ; he who gives, with liberality ; he who leads, with diligence ; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. 9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil ; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love ; give preference to one another in honor ; 11 not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord ; 12 rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer, 13 contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality. 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another ; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. 17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.
2 Timothy 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom : 2 preach the word ; be ready in season and out of season ; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine ; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry
Galatians 6: 6 The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. 7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked ; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. 10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.
Mark 7:20 And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy , slander, pride and foolishness. 23 "All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."
1 Timothy 5:1 Do not sharply rebuke an older man, but rather appeal to him as a father, to the younger men as brothers, 2 the older women as mothers, and the younger women as sisters, in all purity.
17 The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages." 19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. 20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.
2 Corinthians 10:5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, 6 and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete. 7 You are looking at things as they are outwardly . If anyone is confident in himself that he is Christ's, let him consider this again within himself, that just as he is Christ's, so also are we.
Luke 12:1" Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. . 2 "But there is nothing covered up that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known. 3 "Accordingly, whatever you have said in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in the inner rooms will be proclaimed upon the housetops.
Luke 14:12 And He also went on to say to the one who had invited Him, "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, otherwise they may also invite you in return and that will be your repayment. 13 "But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."
One of the rats I've trapped. Gotten six so far.
11 comments:
Bob, I think you suffer from paranoia. I hope you get help.
Really? I laughed when I read this. Paranoia? Did I imagine it when I was told I was not welcome in the church and escorted out? Truth is what our Lord loves, and lies, along with those who tell stories behind closed doors and thus defile the others in the church by infecting them with the same judgmental attitudes, He hates, and will judge. I placed the documentation here, cold hard evidence. Is this Jannie hiding behind anonymous or someone else equally afraid to stand in the open, apparently unaware that the Lord already knows. Get help? I am the Lord's servant, called up from death to give life to those whom He has chosen. If I am a man of God you will lose your voice that the truth be known.
Bob, you're text book paranoid. It's common in brain injuries.
Seems like everyone is spreading lies about you or out to get you.
Do the linky thing.
http://www.hoptechno.com/paranoia.htm
Bob is not paranoid. I know him personally. I am also aware of how others treat him. When someone stands in the light and tries to show them the Word of God their sins are exposed. I am VERY familiar with several of the churches in the Midland area, and Bob is spot on...the problem is that not one person is mature enough in Christ to realize what is going on. But that is a symptom of the church of today. No one is ready to be obedient to the Word of God, if it is inconvenient it is ignored.
Bob, don't cast your pearls before swine, shake the dust from your feet and move on.
I've had to realize myself from my own experiences that the majority in the church are spiritual babes or even spiritually dead. I am called to show them the wisdom of
God, but am also called self righteous. I disagree. I am a sinner and struggling with obedience myself, BUT I admit that...I have had to acknowledge that I have done my part, given the message from God, it was not accepted. I am not the Holy Spirit, it is not my job to convict people of their sin.
I stand beside you my brother.
The pastor of this congregation is standing in the midst of sin, as well as, her congregation. If the congregation was truly Bible believing and biblically based she would never have been called as Pastor. Women are not to be pastors period.
I will be praying for you Bob, Cherie also.
Shake the dust from your feet, and leave these people to their sin. God will deal with them. You and I both know it.
Love ya Bob,
Amy
Bob, I was intrigued enough to do additional research on this congregation. My heart is just broken for you and for them. After speaking to a couple of former members, I see clearly one of their issues, the leadership is made up of ALL women. Where is the spiritual MALE headship for their congregation?
I and the congregation I am a part of will be praying for these brothers and sisters who are being led astray, and are living in disobedience by allowing a woman pastor to serve, and one who expects others to place themselves under her leadership. So heartbreaking...
Amy, and you too Bob, why don't you just find another Church, or better yet, start one at your ranch.
Thanks Amy, for your insightful comments. Anonymous sure sounds like my former pastor in her answers. Saying I'm paranoid would help justify the actions taken, and justifying sin is a common human trait and big part of being self deceived. Either anonymous didn't read the letter from the pastor I posted up there, or was blind to what the pastor said. It's clear when she said "others here say you have a problem with women" and "because of your great knowledge of the bible people here say you talk down to them" (bob paraphrase. word for word is in the letter up there)that there have been conversations about me. FACT IS not one person came and talked to me as Jesus instructed in Mathew 18, where it says if someone sins go to him privately, if he doesn't listen go with two others, and then go to the whole church. The concept Jesus instructed was to TALK WITH HIM, TO CLEAR UP THE AIR AND HELP HIM BE BETTER. No one followed the scripture as they, like the pharisees, consumed with self righteousness, in anger, (Clarence)kicked me out of church and said "Don't come back" somehow thinking this pleases God.
Ahh, the love of Jesus, Love, the foundation of my faith, Hypocrites. White washed tombs self deceived. The bible says the righteous fall 7 times but each time pick themselves up, that involves repenting and recognizing the wrong done. I pray for them, love them, but can't be pleased with what I see. May God's hand rest on that church in a way there is no mistaking it, so they can realize their sin and be restored.
Understand this, I have been standing in the gap, interceding for them, pleading that God stay His hand. But now, because of their rebellious heart, and stubborn stiff necked refusal to practice what they know is the truth, to show love and not judgment, I have released God to deal with them. Thus we will see who is with the Lord, and who has been in rebellion. God will show the truth. If I am a man of God it will be. If not then I am a liar and the truth is not in me.
People who "know" you know your heart.
Sinners must always justify their sin.
To be persecuted for your faith, even in this small way, means you are doing what God would have you do.
I was reminded today that many times people believe they are "called" to a ministry or a pastorate, but if it is in a clear violation of the Bible, they will tried to justify their desires and twist the Bible to fit their desires, instead of aligning their actions along side the Bible. Being gifted is the not the same as being called. Being gifted as a teacher and in spreading the gospel is NOT the same as being called to a pastorate, especially if you are a woman. Women are NOT called to a pastorate or to deaconship/eldership.
I firmly believe that these situations you are facing are an obedience issue, or lack thereof on the part of the congregation and definitely the pastor.
Okay, I don't want to beat this issue to death. I've spoken what the Lord has told me, I need to leave it alone and allow the Lord o work. Responding to hate mail is not in our best interests.
I'll be praying for you all. Have a blessed day!
I agree with Amy E...women are not to be Pastors.
I Corinthians Chapter 14, verse 34/35.
Those verses say it all to me....I know a lot of people will disagree with me, but I believe every word of the bible is God given. I can not take words out nor add words in to make it say what I want it to say. This church badly needs spiritual MALE leadership.
Bob, I feel your pain in these letters. I will pray for you, I believe you are trying your best to serve the Lord.
Loretta
Thanks for stopping by, and speaking up. I didn't go to that church to cause trouble, but God sent us because He saw great need. I submitted, even stayed quiet often despite great error in bible teaching, but the Devil is there, taking advantage of pride, envy, and all the other doors opened by human frailty and sin. The pastor is clearly jealous and unsettled by me, for I am an ordained minister, have a degree from bible college, and have a powerful testimony. Her paranoia interpreted everything I did as an attack or attempt to take over, and she effectively used gossip as a weapon against me, with lots of willing participants. The bible says 15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God ; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled (Hebrews 12:15
I feel great pain not for myself but for the many who have been infected and led to participate in this clear violation of scripture and the command of Jesus to Love one another. It's sad but this is the last days and we will be seeing much worse.
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